Sunday, December 10, 2006

A Suspect!

The San Diego Sheriff’s Department has identified a suspect in the murder of Charles Crow — a local man named Joseph “Bob” Orlosky (mug shot at right), who owns or has an interest in property on Wisecarver Truck Trail, near where the crime occurred.

The press reports about this murder have been skimpy and inconsistent, as have the comments on this blog (see my earlier posts here and here). Of all the various speculations I’ve run across, the one that seems most plausible to me is that the three men in the truck were out “four wheeling", just for fun, on what they believed was a road they had a right to be on. In this hypothetical scenario, Bob Orlosky got angry about these four wheelers because (rightly or wrongly, as the case may be) he believed they didn’t have a right to be there.
The complete special bulletin is at right. Click on the picture to get a full-sized view, or click here to see the original.
The above scenario seems most plausible to me because I witnessed something very much like this (without, of course, the violent ending) on my neighbor’s property, just a few feet from my own property. What I saw was a couple of slightly-drunk guys (neither of whom was Charles Crow) in a four-wheel drive pickup driving off-road to get around a gate on my neighbor’s private road. In doing so, they caused considerable damage to my neighbor’s property — scarring a hillside, destroying several trees, and leaving the area just generally ugly. Furthermore, once they got around the gate, they were trespassing on my neighbor’s property. Now my neighbor didn’t react at all like (in the hypothetical scenario above) we’re speculating that Bob Orlosky did. Instead, he called in the Sheriff’s Department (who responded very quickly) and engaged in a little creative barrier-building to keep these jerks from violating his property again. The two jerks in question, by the way, insisted that they had every right to be on that road, because the road was public, not private. They were just plain wrong about that, but that didn’t keep them from asserting it.
The point of the preceding story is that there may be more to the Charles Crow/Bob Orlosky story that we haven’t heard yet. For instance, perhaps there were words exchanged, and perhaps the boys in the truck were on private land (I don’t know whether this is the case), and perhaps they refused to leave — and Bob Orlosky got angry. That certainly wouldn’t justify a murder, but at least it would make the incident easier to understand. Or (this is pure speculation, folks) perhaps Bob Orlosky was threatened by the truck in some way, and was defending himself — in which case his actions might be justifiable (though going into hiding afterwards certainly wouldn’t be, and by doing so he casts much doubt on that scenario). Just to continue my point that we don’t know everything yet, consider this: suppose Bob Orlosky shot at the truck because it was headed straight for him, at high speed, on a road that he owned? Wouldn’t that put a different color on things?
At least one commenter has interpreted my reaction as support for Bob Orlosky (whom I have never met, or even heard of, until this crime occurred). This same commenter even implied that I might be actively helping Bob Orlosky avoid capture. So, just to make things clear (if the above discussion didn’t): I want Bob Orlosky captured as badly as anyone does. I live a mile from the murder scene; if (as some commenters have speculated) Bob Orlosky is some kind of nutcase who perpetrated this crime for no good reason, then I want him locked up where he won’t hurt anyone else — like me or the people I care about! But at the same time, I note that there are many facts not yet in public evidence. The scenario that seems most unlikely to me is that Bob Orlosky murdered Charles Crow for absolutely no reason, with absolutely no provocation. If the full facts ever become public, my guess is that the crime will become more understandable, because we will then learn what the provocation was. And we can then make a judgment about whether the provocation justified the crime. Acknowledging that there was likely some kind of provocation is not the same thing as saying the crime was justified (because that depends entirely on the specifics of the provocation). I’m not saying that the murder was justified, or even that it was likely justified — simply that the possibility exists that it was, because of facts that we don’t know.

51 comments:

  1. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    I never implied that you were actively helping Orlosky. Just sympathetic. your scenarios with words like plausible and speculation are no more than what I said “Get a feeling”. If I implicate you here it is for you not posting this wanted mans picture on your site sooner than you did, READ my other posts.so {IF} he did it and (IF) hes guilty the courts can take over. The only B.S. here is that a family has lost a loved one.

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  2. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    What I said was “I Get the feeling others are protecting this guy” If I meant you I would have said You. I dont understand why you took this as a personal attack. I indicated on three different comments the importance of posting a picture now your nieghbors have used this picture to gain awareness in your own neck of the woods. wouldnt it be something if he is caught based on their new found knowledge of his picture being posted here.

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  3. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    First allow me to say that I love the freedom provided to us by the armed forces, espically the Marines that protect our right to the freedom of expression including internet blogs.Now for the Comment… I think there is a little bit of unresonable fear on behalf of anyone that is building a protective compound. If ever things get so bad as to need one, someone smarter than the person that built it will take it from away. Yea Yea Yea over my dead body is what your thinking right now.Yes Unreasonalbe fear, the same type of error of judgement that lead you to believe that in some way it could be justified to shoot someone that is Four Wheeling on private property.You drive down my street and have no gun enter my property and I will Kill you. Yes it looks like that was the logic of the person that did this. Argue with yourself all you want but the killer ran. He is not in custody hell, the Keystone Kops are either baiting the public for information or they have not a clue. To bad it is possible they don’t have a clue.Rural Jamul .. I think it must be the Well Water that does it to them. If the guy was right he would not have run.I happen to agree that the guy that stated it was possible some was or is protecting this guy or he would be in custody. I also agree he did not alleged you were helping him. Their is no Boggie man … a compound is not needed from wild fire or anything else. What a said community we live in that someone loses their life for a reason as inconsequecial as trespassing on a dirt road. I hope the cops find this wacko quick..

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  4. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    First off this Blog owner is so totally NOT defending or sheltering Orlosky, that I wonder at someone who would even question him. He has merely made a source availiable, for those of us scratching our heads, to ponder and share information, and for that, I thank you, sir. This horriable senceless murder is driving us all a little bonkers, and we need a place to vent.Secondly, the presses interpretation of a “compound” is very loose at best. It’s a main house with a granny flat and some out buildings,(including at one point a railroad car), which he rents out most likely for income. It’s no Waco by any means. I know, I have seen it many times. Don’t let that color your judgement.Thirdly, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the well water up here, other than it tastes a hell of a lot better than anything the Otay Water District provides. Please stop insulting our well water. It’s free, it’s ice cold and delicious, and we are well aware how jealous everyone out there is.And lastly, yes, I have already been interviewed by homocide and was happy to share everything I know. I suggest that if anyone else knows anything, they give these folks a call.

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  5. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    For the record: Bob has aged some since this photograph was taken, and he has a handlebar like moustashe (sp?). I kept checking the Sheriffs website and they did take a considerable ammount of time in posting it. He’s probably long gone by now, but you never know…Print this and post it. I’m disappointed the authorities have not done so.

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  6. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Read the comments where does it say that he is defending him. All I said was being {sympathetic) read the comments not the " Union tribune” I still have not even got a reply from Tom about where I said that he “was actively helping him avoid capture” talk about Bias

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  7. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    actually I think the whole comment should be retracted from this page. It is not a true statement

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  8. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    These are the previous towns where Orlosky resided:Jamul,Gilbert az. Long Beach Ca, Bremerton Wa.,Medford Or.Phoenix Az. If you have family in these towns you might want to email his pic.

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  9. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    If this is who I think it is, then the cops will have a heck of a time finding him. The whole family has oregon licenses and Canadian citizenship… meaning he could be long gone by now. A friend of mine talked to a person who lives on Orlosky’s property who said a few weeks back they held up a few kids who were trying to steal from the property… this could have made Orlosky paranoid and “out to get” anyone who came across his path. I feel for the victims and their families, and I also feel for Orlosky’s family. I know them and I know this must be devastating to have their husband and father wanted for murder. I think we need to keep them all in our prayers. Pray that Orlosky will be captured and that Jamul will not see something like this again.

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  10. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    I believe he will turn himself in. What his family is enduring right now, and the pain Chuck’s loved ones are enduring must be nearly unbearable.This isn’t the wild west! Please put away your guns. I know almost everyone in Jamul owns at least one. There really isn’t any need to keep them. No matter what the motive, it will all end badly, just like this has. We all go a little crazy sometimes. Best to keep that temptation as far from you as you can. The suffering Bob will endure for the rest of his life for taking the life of this innocent young man, (assuming that’s what happened), will be plenty of punishment in itself.

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  11. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Hey Tom! Thank you for sharing your Blog with us. It’s been really nice to have others to talk to, and most of the folks responding seem like really good people, deep down. You’ve done a very generous thing here and I hope you will continue to ponder from the chapparal for many years to come.

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  12. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Oregon licenses isnt that odd. Residents of jamul with oregon plates and drivers liscenses. cheaper but again not legal. A good example of people in the sticks not wanting to play by the rules. Does this guy have a son that also drives an f250 with oregon plates?

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  13. In the old blog, Just a Guy said:
    Ok, I know the Orloskys personally. I drove to their house and talked to Bob’s wife as soon as I found out that they may have been involved. (Dec 4)Here’s the story I got from bob’s wife and one of the tenants who live on the property. There was a group of 7 or so (Charles Crow included) that had been stealing copper cabling which was on Bob’s property. Once Bob had realized this was going on he had installed motion sensors in the area of the scrap copper.This led to 3 of the guys in this group being arrested the week before when Bob and the above mentioned tenant held them at gunpoint until the police came. despite this they continued to come back to steal the copper.Nobody I talked to was sure what exactly happened the night of the shooting but knowing the area it happened in, the picture of the jeep, and the fact that Crow got shot in the back of the head, I can only speculate that Bob was firing on their car as they sped off. (note the shot out rear window and tires)We all know that nobody goes looking for property in the back roads of Jamul at 8:30 at night! The road they were taking to get there is very obscure and on private property.Keep in mind that The Orlosky family is devastated because of this. Bobs Wife is a wonderful person and now she has to take care of her 2 high school boys and 2 girls in college.I pray that Bob turns himself in.On another note for all the posters of random rumors here’s some Orlosky facts.Bobs wife is a Canadian and retained her Citizenship, everyone else in the family is a US citizen.Yes they all have licenses from either Arizona or OregonThe Orlosky’s do not live on a CompundThey own A LOT of land and A LOT of equipment. They have a few out buildings which house tools and equipment. It feels more like a used equipment yard than a Compund.Bob is not driving his F-250 He left the night of the shooting an hiked out.Hope this helps

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  14. In the old blog, Just a Guy said:
    Ok, I know the Orloskys personally. I drove to their house and talked to Bob’s wife as soon as I found out that they may have been involved. (Dec 4)Here’s the story I got from bob’s wife and one of the tenants who live on the property. There was a group of 7 or so (Charles Crow included) that had been stealing copper cabling which was on Bob’s property. Once Bob had realized this was going on he had installed motion sensors in the area of the scrap copper.This led to 3 of the guys in this group being arrested the week before when Bob and the above mentioned tenant held them at gunpoint until the police came. despite this they continued to come back to steal the copper.Nobody I talked to was sure what exactly happened the night of the shooting but knowing the area it happened in, the picture of the jeep, and the fact that Crow got shot in the back of the head, I can only speculate that Bob was firing on their car as they sped off. (note the shot out rear window and tires)We all know that nobody goes looking for property in the back roads of Jamul at 8:30 at night! The road they were taking to get there is very obscure and on private property.Keep in mind that The Orlosky family is devastated because of this. Bobs Wife is a wonderful person and now she has to take care of her 2 high school boys and 2 girls in college.I pray that Bob turns himself in.On another note for all the posters of random rumors here’s some Orlosky facts.Bobs wife is a Canadian and retained her Citizenship, everyone else in the family is a US citizen.Yes they all have licenses from either Arizona or OregonThe Orlosky’s do not live on a CompundThey own A LOT of land and A LOT of equipment. They have a few out buildings which house tools and equipment. It feels more like a used equipment yard than a Compund.Bob is not driving his F-250 He left the night of the shooting an hiked out.Hope this helps

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  15. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    If he hiked out he can hike back in BECAREFUL out there!!!

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  16. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    this story totally makes sense as he was an electical contractor Orlosky inc.

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  17. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    And by the way, there was copper cabling found in Crows Vehicle.

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  18. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    And by the way, there was copper cabling found in Crows Vehicle.

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  19. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    when you have a theft problem you buy cameras not guns. property can be replaced but lives cant. what kind of mentality is this?

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  20. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Why would any of them have licenses in Oregon or Arizona if they live in California?? It causes alot of suspicion when it sounds like they aren’t trying to tie their residence to one place…just a thought…

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  21. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    If he left his truck and hiked out does that mean he very well could be hiding somewhere in the Jamul hills? Everyone make sure to lock your doors! Does anyone know if he still has the gun? In the sheriff wanted notice it states he is armed and dangerous. Does that mean they believe he has a gun?

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  22. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    fees are cheaper in both states and so are taxes. Ive read alot about out buildings granny flats trailers on this property. Not long ago the county of san diego came to my property where I was storing 2 travel trailers they actually have an ordinance whereby you can have only one travel trailer on anything zoned R1if the county was to go up wisecarver they would have a hayday. They made me move one of my trailers.

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  23. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    It wont be long beore the county starts enforcing code violations by air up there too. which ultimately probably isnt a bad thing as it will eliminate the Jerry Springer trailer residents from this zip code Unfortunately those property owners will loose some cash flow from current illegal tenants.

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  24. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    If seven were ripping Orlosky off previously and three were arrested why the hell would any of the rest of themcome back to do it again, if their cohorts were already arrested? Either they are just stupid or this didnt happen the way it has been explained. How do they know Chuck was there previously and if your not sure dont slander this dead boy and his family.

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  25. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    When Bob left he left the Gun and the Truck. The gun was an AR-14 that fired .223 and the truck was impounded. I don’t think that the guys knew that The Orloskys had installed motion Sensors on their property (once they had figured out they were being robbed). They probably figured that Bob had just gotten lucky the first time when their friends got caught. When I asked how these guys knew about the scrap pile I was told that one of the guys had come up riding his motorcycle with his little brother who was a friend of the Orlosky Boys.

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  26. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Who knows if chuck was at the Orloskys previously but the fact remains that copper was found in the Jeep he was killed in that had been stolen from the Orloskys property.

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  27. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    So this kids life was worth some scrap copper. What are things coming to? The beautiful lawson valley with no crime. I think we should look at crime on a per capita basis Then you could see how much really happens out there. even Tom said he had to call the sheriffs a couple of times Why?

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  28. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Miller/05/CMILLER.Orlosky.TrialOpn.pdf

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  29. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    here is another business he owns/orlowskyAON Engineering18452 wisecarverjamul ca 91935ca state contractor lic # 050 6828engineering and demo contractor

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  30. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    “There was a group of 7 or so (Charles Crow included) that had been stealing copper cabling which was on Bob’s property. Once Bob had realized this was going on he had installed motion sensors in the area of the scrap copper. This led to 3 of the guys in this group being arrested the week before when Bob and the above mentioned tenant held them at gunpoint until the police came. despite this they continued to come back to steal the copper. " -Just A guy........Thanks for the information, I trust that since you are so confident in its truth, that it is correct???That you have some inside source and therefor know information that hasn’t been made public yet? B.S. — — How do you figure that Cropw was there? And for the record, none of the victims knew or “was friends” with any of the Orlosky’s. Better check your facts. I feel horrible for that man’s family, especially for his wife. How do you unwittingly marry someone capable of such a horrendous act? My prayers go out to them. I would hat to be the son or daughter or wife of a man that so lacked self control that he MURDERED in cold blood-PREMEDITATED, by the way…unless we all accidently wait in cammys clutching ASSAULT RIFLES in not self defense, but “property defense.” I have not heard whether there was copper scraps found in the Jeep, I refuse to believe that until I see that evidence for myself. Chuck was not a theif. But I’m not asking you to ignorantly take my word for it, like you so easily believe the crap that you just repeated in your blog.

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  31. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    I dont buy it either!!!!! dont let reports like this ruffle your feathers. anything that I can find out about this guy I will continue to post. maybe the family of chucky can use this in a civil proceeding

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  32. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    I have also heard that this guy visits imperial county quite a bit I wonder if the imperial county sheriff has been made aware of this. he owns a mine near petroglyphs in the jackson gulch area.

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  33. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    http://www.consrv.ca.gov/OMR//ab_3098_list/archived_lists/3098JAN03.htm

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  34. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    these are the names of his partners on the gold mine claim: bob orlosky robert rector grant nunmaker roland w harris virginia mares robert l trent the adresses listed with blm are mostly on wisecarver jamul 91935

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  35. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Miller/05/CMILLER.Orlosky.TrialOpn.pdf I will admit I did not read the entire case above. I did read a good portion and am at a loss as to what the point of the case is? That is in regard to this crime of MURDER? Maybe you can enlighten me as I am not the sharpest tool in the box. Like everyone else I want justice done. If Orlosky did it then he should pay.I am not an attorney nor a judge but if this was brought up in court I think it would be tossed out as irrevelent?

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  36. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    http://www.ewg.org/mining/claims/owners.php?uncon=no&sortby=acres&fips=06025&start=20

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  37. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Let me help you sharpen your tool here. the more we know about this guy the better!! I can deduce from this information that he was an elecrical contractor! That bid jobs obviously without seeing them! It also shows that he was doing work in Bremerton Wa. any information provided here can help. there are also more local people that worked for orlowsky in this paperwork. maybe someone reads this and figures out where he is, Look how much more info we have since his picture was finally posted on this blog

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  38. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Isn’t it illegal to have an out-of-state driver’s license (and plates) when your residence is in California? Also…why does he go by “Bob” when his legal name is Joseph P? There are too many things that seem fishy about this whole case. Also a thought I had is that when you own a company you usually remain in one area to build your business and retain customers yet he has moved around quite a bit in several different states. Also that the family all has Oregon licenses is strange…even the kids? I agree…he needs to turn himself in…he can’t hide forever.

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  39. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Anyone know if the suspect has any military training?

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  40. In the old blog, Just a Guy said:
    I don’t believe so, but he is defiantly a survivor.

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  41. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    WHERE DID YOU FIND THIS INFO? aRE YOU CONFIDENT IN IT’S ACCURACY?? PLEASE, DO TELL. I DON’T BELIEVE A ORD OF IT, I’D LIKE TO SEE EVIDENCE OF THIS FACT IN A POLICE REPORT, OR WHATEVER LIABLE SOURCE YOU PULLED IT FROM.

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  42. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    A survivor of what? Are you implying he could survive on his own out in the hills somewhere in Jamul or where ever he has gone to?

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  43. In the old blog, Daniel Tyack said:
    That is what I was implying. He’s very adaptive and despite the fact that he is eccentric and a little odd he is VERY intelligent.

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  44. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    I am saddened for the family that lost Charles. This is a very unfortunate situation. I do know Bob. Here’s where I stand.. I believe it could have been an accident. I don’t think Bob would have intentionally shot anyone. I do believe that he believed that he was being robbed and shot at the jeep to stop it. I’ve driven that road alot and the road is VERY bumpy. If someone was shooting at the tires to stop it, the jeep very well could have taken a bounce which resulted in the death and injuries. I am suspect of who goes looking at property after dark at 8:30 on a Friday night with other young men.. I’d think it would be a Saturday or Sunday outing with his mate. I do know that Bob has had things stolen. As I started VERY UNFORTUNATE. Since Bob turned himself in, everyone can stop fearing him, but I really don’t think anyone needed to be afraid of him before… He was provoked for some reason.. founded or unfounded..VERY UNFORTUNATE.

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  45. In the old blog, courtney said:
    i think you people should think about who reads what you say and who you are hurting more like chuck girlfriend so please watch how you say stuff cause i alot of people are still hurting inside

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  46. In the old blog, Daniel Tyack said:
    This blog is not being forced down anyone’s throat! If anyone is reading it it is completely at will. In the words of my father “if you see something you don’t like, look the other way”. Besides in the same sense that people were condemning Bob as a monster who was roaming the hills of Jamul looking for his next victim, I say let’s take a look at Crow’s life! Hey let’s take a look in the back seat of the Jeep!!! There is more to this story, and anyone who turns a blind eye is just ignorant.

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  47. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Bob probably shot at them out of fear. He was definitely outnumbered and they are young men and he’s middle aged. How much scrap did Chuck and his friends steal and which of their friends were arrested before this incident for stealing from Bob? How drunk were they when they went to Bob’s to steal? All of that crowd is known for being heavy drinkers and on a weekend, you better believe they were not sober. This is really sad and its a shame Chuck got killed but he and his friends had no right to be on Bob’s property and Bob was within his rights to protect his belongings from theft.

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  48. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT NO COPPER WIRE OF ANY KIND WAS FOUND IN CROW’S JEEP. AND FOR THE RECORD, CROW AND HIS FRIENDS WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THE PREVIOUS THEFT OR ANY THEFT FOR THAT MATTER. REGARDLESS OF HOW PEOPLE SPIN THIS IT DOES NOT JUSTIFY MURDER. THE ROUND THAT KILLED CROW WAS DISCHARGED AFTER THE VICTIMS PASSED ORLOSKY -POSING NO THREAT TO HIM. HE AMBUSHED THESE KIDS AS THEY TRIED TO FLEE, AND ONLY AFTER THE FIRST VOLLEY OF ROUNDS BLEW OUT THIER HEADLAMPS. ORLOSKY GAVE THEM NO WARNING. HE JUST OPENED FIRED ON THEM ON AN ASSUMPTION THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE COMMITTED A THEFT. FURTHERMORE, IF ORLOSKY FELT THAT HE ACTIONS WERE LAWFUL THEN HE SHOULD HAVE CALLED THE SHERIFF’S AND REPORTED THE INCIDENT LIKE HE DID A WEEK BEFORE. INSTEAD, HE FLED AND HID THE MURDER WEAPON. IF HE IS SO CONFIDENT OF HIS DEFENSE THEN WHY DOESN’T HE PROVIDE THE AUTHORITIES THE MURDER WEAPON…

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  49. what realy happened that night while those boys were looking for propertythey some how passed a full size stop sign and two reflectable signs that quote "no tresspasing youwill be arested. and the one looking for property is also on disability checks for 4 years, there is no way he could byb land out there and had no reason to be there. why would any one come looking for property while intoxicated by two substances that makes no sence and at night. this sounds a little fishey wat do you know.... first hand pedestrian

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  50. why would the brother ofhurley crowchuck crow die with latex glovesonand not know topullup100more feet to the firestationafter saying he has been driving skyline forseven years. why would they have gunpowder in there jeep and not onorlosky's truck as said he used the truck as a sheild while shooting at these thevies thismakesno sence these boys are no good thevies and must be put away foratemted murder onboborlosky not the other way around.

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