Friday, December 22, 2006

Self-Defense?

Today’s San Diego Union-Tribune has an article about the first hearing in the Charles Crow murder case. In this hearing, Orlosky’s attorney (Paul Pfingst — a former District Attorney himself) presented some elements of Orlosky’s side of the story, including a rough outline of his version of events. There were also some interesting comments by Orlosky’s friends and neighbors. The lead:

A Jamul electrical contractor charged with murder was defending himself against potential thieves who tried to run him down when he caught them, his lawyer told a judge yesterday.
Joseph “Bob” Orlosky “was being ripped off” when he fired on three men he found driving a Jeep on a dirt road that cuts through his rural East County property about 8:30 p.m. on Dec. 1, Orlosky’s lawyer, former District Attorney Paul Pfingst, told Superior Court Judge Charles W. Ervin.
“The victims tried to kill Mr. Orlosky and Mr. Orlosky defended himself,” Pfingst said.

This is pretty close to one of the scenarios that I and several commenters have speculated about in past posts on this event. It makes a lot more sense than the idea that Orlosky just randomly started shooting at the vehicle Crow was in, for no good reason.
Another excerpt:

Pfingst told the judge Orlosky never left Jamul during the time police were looking for him and was continuing his business and consulting with Pfingst about surrendering.

Several commentors on previous posts speculated that Orlosky was hiding out here in Jamul. It appears they were right. If it’s true that he was continuing his business affair, that seems pretty brazen — and I’m amazed that his contacts with other people didn’t lead to him being caught…
The police outlined their version of events:

Police in court documents said Crow, 23, and his two companions were traveling in a Jeep Cherokee north on Wisecarver Truck Trail in Jamul when they passed a white Ford truck.
After coming upon a locked gate across the road, they returned south on Wisecarver Truck Trail. Orlosky ran from behind his parked truck, stood in the road and fired a rifle at them, police said.
Orlosky again fired at the Jeep after it passed him, hitting Crow in the head and Monge in the elbow, police said. They said the Jeep stalled after turning onto Skyline Truck Trail, and Crow’s companions jumped out to hide in bushes, making several calls to 911. They remained hidden until sheriff’s deputies arrived.

This is more-or-less what we heard in the earliest reports. There’s no statement in here about Orlosky’s motivation for shooting. I infer from the absence of an expressed motive that the police (and the District Attorney) are uncertain of a motive, or that they believe a motive will detract from their murder charge. Or it could be that they just don’t want to make their theory about the motive public at this point.
Here’s Orlosky’s version of events:

Pfingst said Orlosky had been watching television in his living room when sensors he had installed along the road warned that intruders were on his property.
Fearing he was about to be robbed, Pfingst said, Orlosky went to investigate and was nearly run down. “The people who were on that property had no legitimate reason to be there at that time of night,” Pfingst said.

This jibes with some of the things asserted by commentors on earlier posts; things I had not been able to find any public information on. And in its rough outline, it matches one of the scenarios we have discussed in previous posts: that Orlosky’s motive for the shooting was to defend himself or his property, or both. This makes much more sense than a random, unmotivated shooting. It doesn’t necessarily justify Orlosky’s actions; we’d have to know a lot more about what happened to be able to determine that. One possible scenario is that the boys were on Orlosky’s property, Orlosky got angry — but wasn’t actually directly threatened in any way — and started shooting. That would be, in my opinion at least, an unjustified act. However, another possible scenario is that the boys were on Orlosky’s property, saw him on the road, interpreted his presence as a threat, and tried to run him down — at which point Orlosky started shooting. In that scenario, Orlosky’s actions might be justified.
Note to friends and family of Charles Crow: I am not asserting that either of the above scenarios is what actually occurred. I am simply outlining the range of possibilities I see in a case that this concerned Jamul citizen would like to understand. As a local resident, I have a vested interest in understanding why this murder occurred a mile or so from my home. I’d like to know whether we had a lunatic shooting people at random, or we had a homeowner defending himself and his property. Those are two very different versions of events…
The UT reporter managed to get some additional information that didn’t come from a press release or a transcript, the first time that’s occurred in their reporting on this story:

Outside the courtroom, Orlosky’s sister, Dana Ross of San Carlos, said that her brother had lost “hundreds of thousands of dollars” in copper wiring and equipment to thieves.
Pfingst said that just two weeks before the shooting, Orlosky had made a citizen’s arrest on three men he said he had caught stealing copper wiring on his property.
A former neighbor, Maggie Schweitzer, said Orlosky often came to her aid when trespassers approached her home. “He is a good man,” she said, “and we knew from the beginning he was protecting his family and his property.”

Again, this jibes with some of the information posted by commentors on previous posts; information that I could not corroborate at all. The statements paint a sketchy picture of a man who perhaps isn’t either a lunatic or the human manifestation of evil, as well as some context to understand how Orlosky was feeling on the night of the shooting.
This is more than I expected to have made public at this stage of affairs. It will be interesting — and comforting — to see the story unfold in more detail as the case progresses…

27 comments:

  1. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    I guess my “FEELING” was right someone was helping him.

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  2. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    The people who harbored this fugitive should also be prosecuted. but I will guarantee you it wont happen. whats wrong with this picture?

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  3. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    So if the cops show pictures of Crow’s face and his friend’s faces to the local copper wire recycling locations around town, no one there will be able to identify them as having turned in any copper for money? That would be an interesting follow up for the cops in this investigation.

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  4. In the old blog, Daniel Tyack said:
    Glad to see that my wild musings we not in vain. And I’m glad to see that there were no reports of Bob following the thieves out onto the street and shooting at them again! Whoever said they found that shell is either full of crap or the family (or someone) planted it!!! I spoke once again to the homeowner who lives closest to the place where the Jeep stopped. The homeowner again reported that they heard no shots! I am considering that theory debunked.I must however state that one part of my information may have been misguided. I do not know if the exact location of the shooting was at the Orloskys front gate or up by their “scrap yard”. I originally thought it to be by the scrap yard but after talking again to their tenant (who helped Bob with the first citizens arrest) It sounds more like he was waiting for the thieves by his front gate. Either way the road dips down at both locations 20 or so yards away. So my original theory of shooting at tires and having the trajectory suddenly change still stands.And to any of the thieves who are reading this Bob’s wife scrapped the copper! It’s kinda like rodents, you eliminate the food source and they take off. So no need to go “Off Roading” or “looking for property” anymore.The last thing I would like to mention is Bob was not just “doing business” he was selling a property to pay for legal fees. I’m not saying he was right in staying in hiding but what happened happened.

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  5. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Does anyone know if Orlosky is still in custody or did he post the $2 million bail?

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  6. In the old blog, Simi said:
    Strangely, I have heard nothing of this case in any media in Northern California. I wouldn’t even know about it except for reading this blog.

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  7. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Orlosky is saying that he felt threatened by the jeep because it is the only defense that he has, and his story is so translucent I would hope that anyone with any respectable level of intellegence would dismiss the idea. It is plain and simple. If the VICTIMS had been stealing, and scraps were found in the jeep, it would have provided an immediate motive for Chuck’s death, and arrests would have been made right there or at least by now. Perhaps Orlosky had a bad experience with theives before…sucks for him, but he is not a victim. He made the decision to bring an assault rifle onto the road -not his property- knowing that the situation might occur where he would lose his temper and use it on the unfortunate individuals who happened to cross his path at the wrong time. As you will notice in the latest article of the Union Tribune, his lawyer stated that Orlosky went to confront “potential” theives. So basically they’re saying they don’t even know that Chuck & his friends were stealing. “Potential” is vastly different than CERTAIN and it isn’t the word I’d use to justify why I killed an innocent man in so-called “self defense”. Doesn’t seem like he’s quite fully convinced himself. He had better do better than that in court. Furthermore, Chuck was a passenger & wasn’t in control of the vehicle - he wasn’t driving. Why then, was HE shot and killed if Orlosky was trying to stop the vehicle?? I’m quite amazed how easily much of the communtiy is trying to defend the creep. If my own father,brother friend, husband, etc. did what he did, I would see it for what it was, and hope that they would have the backbone to face what they did instead of trying to squirm out of it like Orlosky-the heartless coward. Orlosky is no better than a gangbanger who shoots up an innocent kid for steppin' on his turf, and I hope the law treats him the same.

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  8. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Amen. The worst thing going for Orlosky is the best thing we have going for the general populace that is that he has a moron for an attorney Paul Pfingst. What has this guy done after being San Diego’s D.A. Lets see worked for KUSI- WOW.

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  9. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Amen. The worst thing going for Orlosky is the best thing we have going for the general populace that is that he has a moron for an attorney Paul Pfingst. What has this guy done after being San Diego’s D.A. Lets see worked for KUSI- WOW.

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  10. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    This blog has provided an excellent platform for public debate and information sharing. There is an important point which should be clarified. Wisecarver Truck Trail is a private road, passing through private property, and no portion of Wisecarver Truck Trail is public. Wisecarver Truck Trail splits off from Wisecarver Lane. Wisecarver Lane is a county maintained road for a few hundred feet from Skyline, where it is paved, then it becomes a dirt road and is also private.

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  11. In the old blog, Daniel Tyack said:
    The road that Bob was on when he shot is in fact his property. The road also has posted no trespassing signs. And by the way, I love Mr. or Mrs. “Anonymous” tagging Orlosky as a Coward. At least give us a first name so we can follow along with your train of thought.

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  12. In the old blog, Jamulian said:
    What do you call killing someone and running. Why didn’t he call or go the Jeep to tell the sherriffs what happened. To me his actions define a coward. When you muder someone and it takes you two weeks to go to the sherriff’s you are hiding something.

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  13. In the old blog, backwards Bob said:
    he better hope that I dont end up on his jury

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  14. In the old blog, Daniel Tyack said:
    Hey that’s the spirit, thanks for signing the posts!Please don’t miss the point of my last statement on “tagging someone a coward”. I was merely trying to draw a point that it is pretty easy to say whatever you want (true or untrue) when you are hiding behind the name “Anonymous”. And justified or not I was told (by his wife) that the reason Bob was in hiding was because Bob needed to free up some cash for legal fees. It seems weird to me but at the same time it makes sense. I mean seriously, it’s not everyday that something like this happens. How would you have responded?

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  15. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    So Bob KNEW he killed Chuck from the moment he fired his gun and that’s why he hid out all that time so he could get money together to pay a lawyer to defend him? If Bob wanted to stop theives from robbing him, why didn’t he just buy a spike strip somewhere to lay out for them to run over or simply write down the friggin' license plate of the trespassing vehicle or take a video camera out there and blatantly film them so they’d know he was getting them trespassing on video for the cops or wave them down and hold them at gun point until the cops came? How many times did he shoot at the vehicle? His story is not washing. He was pissed off and that’s why he shot at them, not because he felt they were trying to run him down. If it was a private road, why not install a gate to keep people out?

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  16. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Daniel…people post as anonymous because this is a very hot topic as well as being local. You have made some rather crude statements that I may or may not agree with but considering the many emotions of many local Jamulians and the fact that many do own guns I would not feel comfortable posting my name. I know the Orlosky’s well and I also know you and I would warn you that if you are going to write about a topic that many people are emotional about and post your name then you should be very careful as to what you write and include in your post. I personally do not fully believe Bob’s story. It makes no sense to me that if he was continually having people steal from the copper scrap and he did not need the copper himself, why would he hold onto it? As far as not turning himself in for 2 weeks to sell property and what not to raise money for legal fees…why couldn’t his wife do that? I personally believe he was getting rid of evidence of other shady things he might be involved in? There are alot of question marks in my mind about this whole ordeal…why the Oregon licenses? Why was the gun registered to an address in Long Beach? Why have the Orlosky’s had several different addresses in multiple states? I thought I knew this family but I question many things that I have heard recently as well as knowledge and experiences that I have had with them prior to this incident. It is all very tragic…my prayers go out to the Crowe family. I could not imagine having to endure what they are going through. Even if Crowe was stealing from Orlosky it in no way justifies killing him over it. This angers me further when it has been said that the copper in question was a scrap pile. If it was so valuable to the Orlosky’s and they knew they were having a problem with kids stealing it AND it wasn’t something that they were using or needed…it should of been taken care of (scrapped) a long time ago…to me Orlosky was asking for trouble and he was using the copper scrap as bait to get the kids in…just my rambling thoughts…

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  17. In the old blog, CAPS LOCK said:
    good point for Daniel. Jamul is small and Personally I wouldnt want my name associated with this mess

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  18. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    I wanted to make a comment about the latest Union-Tribune article which stated that Pfingst said that Orlosky was defending himself because the jeep tried to run him over. Wisecarver is a very narrow dirt road. If someone is standing in the middle of Wisecarver pointing a rifle at you, where can you go? They already knew the road ends at a gate so the only way out was back to Skyline. I would like more information on Orlosky’s self defense claim. I would of tried to run him over too if he was standing in the middle of the road pointing a rifle at me.

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  19. In the old blog, CAPS LOCK said:
    exactly!! who is he the Jamul police department? This is a good example of people in the outback trying to take the law into their own hands. Put your guns away Hatfields.

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  20. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Private individuals do have the right to make a citizen’s arrest - which Mr. Orlosky did several weeks prior to the shooting incident. It’s my understanding that he and another neighbor “arrested” three individuals on his property and held them for the sheriff.

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  21. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Some clarification and confusion reguarding the roads, Wisecarver Truck Trail and Lane. Both ends of Wisecarver are now gated off where they both used to lead down into Lawson Valley. Mapquest and Thomas Bros. do not show these gates and people, including law enforcement, trying to find easier access to Lawson, are still ending up lost and scratching their heads as to why these gates are there. The gate on the Truck Trail is new and comes up a fair distance before the area Orlosky has gated off for his familys private use. He does own more than that area, but those of us along these roads are required to allow access to travelers to areas which are not our own. So I guess my question is where exactly on the road the shooting occured? The gate to the “scrapyard” is off to the right and usually shut. Also there are two gates on the Truck Trail. One that now blocks access to Lawson Valley, and one that marks the entrance to the old Wisecarver Ranch. So which gate did they turn around at? The way I understand it attempting to travel Wisecarver Truck Trail down into Lawson Valley would not be trespassing. As to Bobs hiding out in Jamul the whole time, I’m disappointed that our tax money went to positioning a SWAT team and having a helicopter hover all day long when someone knew where he was and that he was planning to surrender. This seems very poor communication at best.

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  22. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    I checked “Who’s on Jail” on the SDC Sheriff’s website and Orlosky is NOT listed today (1/7/06). Do you know if he posted bail. I hope the sheriffs took away all his guns. He may claim self defense but he is wacky!

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  23. In the old blog, CAPS LOCK said:
    obviously! isnt that special

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  24. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    I heard through someone who knows the family that he did post bail…I have no idea if he is in Jamul though

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  25. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    I received this response after posing some questions via email to the author of an article from the San Diego Union, Mr. Huard,I wrote: As a concerned Jamul resident I have several questions that I hope you can answer.I understand that Mr. Orlosky has been freed on bail, was that 2 million dollars?Would the Sheriff’s department confiscate any guns, dangerous material that he possesses?Wasn’t he assigned a public defender for whom taxpayers bear the cost? Why was former District Attorney Paul Pfingst listed as his attorney in your article?Any more news on the supposedly theft of salvageable copper from his property? I heard that the theft was actually drugs and that might account for Orlosky’s bizarre behavior.Please do not reveal my name as Mr. Orlosky knows where I live and former dealings with him were not exactly pleasant.I think all of Jamul (and perhaps everywhere) should be concerned about his release on bail.Thank you for any information you can provide the community.Mr Huard responded: “First of all, I will treat your e-mail as confidential. Bail was set at $2 million. Mr. Orlosky doesn’t appear on the sheriff’s list of who’s in jail so I assume he made bail. I don’t know if the sheriff’s office confiscated any weapons other than the rifle used in the shooting. I don’t recall if the judge said anything about weapons. The Public Defender’s Office was initially appointed to represent Mr. Orlosky but only for his arraignment. This is fairly common because defendants must be arraigned soon after their arrest and often don’t have time to hire a private attorney. Mr. Orlosky subsequently retained Paul Pfingst. I have heard nothing futher concerning what was stolen other than what Mr. Pfingst and Mr. Orlosky’s family said, that it was copper wire. At this stage, both the defense and prosecution are releasing very little information. We should learn much more at the preliminary hearing, which is sort of a mini-trial to determine if there is sufficient evidence for a full trial. That is currently scheduled for Jan. 24. Ray Huard619-293-1334e-mail ray.huard@uniontrib.com “

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  26. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    Fyi- Orlosky will be in court on 1-24-07 at 9:00 amfor his readiness confrence. This case will go to trial.

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  27. In the old blog, Anonymous said:
    If we didn’t have scumbag tweakers thieves among us there wouldn’t be a need for gates or guns. Unfortunately, that isn’t the case. Maybe we need to contribute not only $50 a month for a legal defense for the casino, but $50 a month for a Jamul Tweaker Patrol. I can confirm 5 homes were broken into in Jamul recently. If you don’t want to contribute an additional $50 for some doughnut eating private patrolmen, then I suggest you invest in PitBulls and Firearms…forget the cameras.

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